Amiah Taylor: Do you think Black children are encouraged to become goldsmiths and jewelers?

Kassandra Gordon: This is the thing, people have to look at the journey and no one has done any research. This is why I wanted to do the fund of qualitative research.

I’m trained as a social researcher from my time at university. We’re not there yet these are all just random stories. This is just my individual story. So when I was at school, I didn’t know about silversmiths. I didn’t know what a goldsmith was.

Everyone wanted me to be a social worker because I don’t know how it is in the U.S. but usually, there’s a lot of overrepresentation of social workers who are Black. That’s what I grew up in, everyone wanted to be a nurse, a hairdresser, a social worker, or perhaps an athlete. I’m not about that life. The short answer is no, I don’t think people are exposed. And the Black people who do, do jewelry there’s an expectation for them to do hip hop jewelry like grills.

AT: Has your experience of harassment around collecting supplies affected your style of jewelry? I noticed that your style is very minimalist. 

KG: When I described that in my open letter, that was when I first started probably 5 or 6 years ago. People are starting to recognize me as a jeweler but when I first started it was very unwelcoming. It was assumed that I was lost or that I wasn’t a jeweler and I would get followed around.

Sometimes when you’re looking for gemstones, it’s a small area, and suppliers would just hold the gemstones and piece it to me while the other white clients could hold things and explore as they pleased. Someone accused me of taking a gemstone and I was very upset. I was like “why would I take a gemstone?” And the gemstone was like fluorite, which is 2 or 3 pounds. So it was like, you’re going to try and say I took something that’s 3 dollars? The jewelry trade, especially Hatton Garden, is all about trust. So it took me a while, it took me years for people to begin trusting me. 

AT: You referred to the jewelry industry as monolithic. What do you credit for the lack of diversity?

KG: So number 1 is visibility. When you think of the term BAME (Black, Asian, and Minority Ethnic), some people might think of Chinese people or Middle Eastern people or Jewish people. But what’s different is that they are well established. They have their own networks in the jewelry industry, but not Black jewelers that I know of. They’re not as visible. 

It’s pretty heartbreaking that the jewelry industry doesn’t care because they didn’t put the resources out there to show compassion. No one wondered, “why are there no Black people in our courses? Why are there no Black people in our trade shows?” With trade shows, it’s frustrating, I can’t be the only Black jeweler there. I don’t want to be seen strictly as a “Black jeweler.” I just want to be seen as a jeweler and for my merit. I’m not an exotic kind of thing. At times it’s annoying because I don’t always make jewelry that’s “Afro-centric.”

AT: Just because you happen to be Black doesn’t mean you have to make Afro-centric jewelry. You’re allowed to have diverse interests and you don’t want to be pigeonholed.

KG: Absolutely. I’m pigeonholed with Black people as well because Black people don’t really buy from me. And I want to put it out in the universe, I’m not afraid of blackness. My parents are Jamaican and Rastafarian, so I’ve had very strong pan-African roots. 

My jewelry collections are all about space and I like space. So why can’t I do it? Black people will say to me, “why don’t you do Nefertiti and things like that?” But I’ve done it before and you’ve never bought them. So you like me but at the same time, you don’t. You want to invest in me and at the same time, you don’t. I don’t want to be in a box, I want everyone to buy from me. With my work, I’m diverse. I use white models, I use black models and I even use myself. 

I try to cater to everybody but I’m learning in the industry that you can’t please everybody.

AT: In your Instagram Live, you said that we might be over-relying on old models to make a change. What models of change do you find to be paternalistic or outdated?

KG: You know what I just had an epiphany yesterday. I keep saying the jewelry industry but what does that mean? Usually, I mean, the archaic bodies of jewelry that have been around for centuries. It’s the emerging designers that are driving this change. And I’m thinking, “why am I waiting for whatever archaic jewelry body to make a change? If they cared, they would’ve done it.” Why am I waiting? 

4 weeks ago, I had about 1000 followers. All of a sudden, I’ve got 2000 followers. The followers don’t matter. I’m just trying to tell you about the jump. I had a very small following and I made noise about wealth and the system. People have contacted me from India and the U.S. and it’s interesting because I thought my voice didn’t matter. But it seems like it resonates with a lot of people. A lot of people understand that a conversation needs to be had and people want change. All of these people followed me and donated to the fund and responded to the open letter. It seems like it’s the first time we’ve had a diverse inclusion conversation at the global scale in the jewelry industry.

Amiah Taylor: What are your feelings on the #BlackLivesMatter Movement?

Emilie Shapiro: I am in full support and solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement. I can feel the tides turning, not just in the world but in myself. As a white woman who was raised by liberal parents in NY, I’ve always considered myself an ally without a racist bone in my body. Like so many others, I’m realizing for the first time in my life that’s not true. I’ve been looking back at things that I was taught growing up, in school and simply ingrained in our system, and am realizing for the first time we were not shown the whole picture. I’ve been focusing on educating myself, learning how to educate my son, and having conversations with friends and family that honestly we would have never had before. Not because we weren’t interested or didn’t believe that black people are not treated equally or given equal opportunity, but because we didn’t feel like it was our place to talk about. I realize now that’s wrong. We have to talk, and we have to fight for change – that’s our privilege. We need to make space, make noise, and make some changes!

AT: You’ve said all of your pieces are just extensions of your soul, how do you deal with the vulnerability of creating pieces that deeply reflect the self?

ES:  It’s really all I know how to do. I’m much more vulnerable doing other things I don’t feel confident in – like speaking on camera, math, and baking. I think when you’re comfortable with a skill or medium it gives you the freedom to just do you. 

AT: What draws you to brass as a medium? 

ES: I love working with brass so I can be big and bold with it. I love the color and I love the resistance it gives when working with it. 

AT: When you have low-energy days or days where you feel drained, do you have favorite motivational speakers that you use to lift your spirits? 

ES: I really love listening to Kurt Elster; he’s a marketing genius and is passionate about entrepreneurship and creativity. After I listen to his podcast I always feel energized about my business.

AT: You were able to help donate nearly 50 masks to frontline emergency workers at NYU Langone Hospital in NYC. In what ways has the pandemic changed your daily perspective? 

ES: I was really excited to be able to donate masks to NYU Langone hospital workers here in NYC. It’s something we wear every day in my studio, and never in a million years would I have thought how coveted they would be. The pandemic has taught me a lot of things, but mostly to slow down, to not take advantage of the small moments and how lucky I am to have my family, health, food on my table and a roof over my head.

Amiah Taylor: Where do you stand as far as the #BlackLivesMatter Movement?

Sarah Swell: I (and we as a business) unequivocally support the Black Lives Matter Movement. I unequivocally rebuke police brutality and support (at the very least) massive reform and reframing of the police. 

AT: So it’s safe to say that you consider yourself to be an ally? 

SS: While I hope to be seen as an ally, and am not entirely new to the movement, there’s a lot of work I need to do to be able to call myself an ally. I’ve been focusing on ways to use my business as a vehicle for racial justice & social justice work, donating, and reading. It has always been a goal of mine to incorporate more of a social justice lens into my business, but in all honesty, I fell asleep at the wheel a bit over the past couple of years. This inflection point in our country sparked by the murders of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd (among many others) has jerked me awake and I vow to never go back to sleep.

AT: It’s always good to see people intentionally doing the work to improve, so I can appreciate that. You’ve had to close your shop because of the California wildfires and then again for the pandemic. How do you continue with a spirit of optimism in the face of adversity? 

SS: Well, I’ll start by saying that I’m certainly not always optimistic! Owning a small business has always and will always be a challenge. My business is an extension of myself, and making jewelry is my passion. Even when it’s difficult, I find myself returning again and again for the love of the craft.

AT: What ties you to Sausalito and why is it a special place for you?

SS: I moved my studio to Sausalito from Oakland because I was craving a quieter life. Sausalito has an interesting history, from its days as a raucous bootlegging town during prohibition to the counterculture music scene in the ’60s & ’70s, it’s always been a weird, special little place. And I love weird.

AT: What’s your favorite gemstone? 

SS: I have to go with diamonds. Let me specify by saying unique diamonds. The range of colors and unique cuts is incredible. We use a lot of non-traditional diamonds in our work and I love it when clients ask what the stone is. They often do a double-take when we tell them it’s a diamond. From a designer standpoint, they’re very durable, so I like that I don’t need to stress when designing with them and in turn, clients don’t have to worry about durability when wearing them.

AT: You make jewelry modeled after fishbones. Fishbone jewelry has connections to cultures in both Hawaii and New Zealand. Is there any hidden significance or intentionality behind those specific designs?

SS: The fishbone series was my very first. I grew up on the east coast by the sea, so the design is more of an interpretation of a life lived by the ocean rather than anything very specific. Although it definitely has nods to both fish (in its scale-like fluidity) and snakes (with its serpentine-like movement.) 

Amiah Taylor: How do you both feel about police brutality and do you consider yourselves to be allies?

Nicole Rimedio and Scott Zankman: We are fully supportive of the protests. We see protest as a vital part of American society. We hope that the protests continue until there is a real, serious, and measurable change to the way BIPOC are treated by this country. We believe that systemic racism is a problem that all people need to work to solve and that white supremacy is a problem that white people need to see as their problem. It’s not a black issue, it’s a white issue.

AT: How do you relate to the Black Lives Matter Movement?

SZ: We’re interested in reposting BLM related content through an art lens. We’re not an activist organization or a news source. We are a deeply artistic jewelry brand. We will look to highlight images and words that speak to us as art. Yes, we want to repost the work of black artists and others but we also want to expand the definition to include actions taken in the protest. For instance, dismantling a statue of a slave owner and then defacing it is something we consider to be art.  

AT: If you could be a superhero husband and wife team, saving the world from the crime of hideous jewelry, what would you call yourselves? 

SZ: We already are that: Team Variance. We want to change how beauty is perceived. The standardized version of it never really gets questioned. It’s a mission of sorts. 

AT: What was your original intention behind getting a master’s degree in Landscape Architecture from UC Berkeley? 

NR: I thought it was the right thing to be a professional and have a good steady career. I’ve always been interested in urban systems. How people inhabit spaces, what makes a place seem magical. I love observing how people move through space. I think the most valuable experience of it all was sitting through 3 years of what felt wrong, which led me to see clearly what was right for me.

 AT: I love that perspective and I’ve had the same experience of sorting through what was wrong to gain more clarity. Speaking of clarity though, I love the way that your jewelry stands out in pictures. Do you have any tips for how to best capture jewelry in photographs? 

SZ: A nice lens helps, get a macro lens. For us, we’re looking to capture the texture of the work as we believe this is an important aspect of our aesthetic. Plus, jewelry is small so we believe it is important to focus on the actual piece.

AT: You approach your jewelry from a minimalist perspective, do you also embrace minimalism in your daily life? 

NR: Yes, from the perspective of where I put my focus. I prefer to only have a few things I am focusing on at a time. I don’t do well with feeling scattered. I guess you could say I approach minimalism from a mental place. But I like stuff. You should see my closet. 

Amiah Taylor: What fascinates you about buildings, and how does that translate into jewelry?

Karole Mazeika: I don’t think architectural design translates into jewelry, exactly. You could say design principles are the same at any scale but that isn’t true. The priorities are different, the purpose is different, and the practical concerns are different. 

That said, humans tend to adorn themselves along their outside just like buildings. I use contemporary architectural skin patterns in my jewelry, from expanded metal in the VLA (Very Large Antenna Array) to perforated screens in the Tierra series. Another way architecture impacts the body is in its choreography through built environments. I don’t design pieces that stand off the body but that interact with it.

AT: In your Albuquerque studio, do you like to listen to music as you work, and if so, which artists?

KM: I wait until my morning walks to listen to the news on the pandemic, especially hard-hitting ones from The Daily or The Inquirer. I let myself grieve and cry. When I get to my studio I switch to stations from Google Music. Currently, I’m defaulting to funky and celestial instrumentals. I recently discovered “focus music” in my Headspace app and it’s a great variation on white noise for CAD work. I tend to listen to audiobooks while constructing jewelry. Some I recently listened to are I Contain Multitudes by Ed Yong and Everything Is F*cked by Mark Manson. 

AT: How did you get the idea for opening up Oropopo with your husband, Grady?

KM: I had been experimenting with laser cutting and wearables for my personal use for a while before leaving my architecture job. Grady and I have always had a collaborative dimension to our relationship. Even before I began working for myself, we would talk about design and art theory and collaborate in web design and blogs. As a writer, he loves visual metaphors. We both love the landscape and traditions of New Mexico and the Southwest. So as I explored more about what the laser cutter could do as a tool and leather as a material, it evolved into a serious endeavor.

AT: As a husband and wife team, what are your respective roles? Would you say that you are more mechanical or that he is?

KM: Day-to-day I design and do a lot of the production. I spend most of my time in the studio or at trade shows. Grady writes narratives. He also handles the back-end business-to-business work. He spends most of the time behind a screen or on the phone. If one of our lasers breaks I fix it. If the swamp cooler breaks he fixes it. I think we complement each other in our mechanical prowess. 

AT: When you initially opened Oropopo, did you know that you wanted to expand past jewelry and make shoes and tabletop sculptures?

KM: Jewelry has been our focus because we are filling a hole in the market. Shoes were a collaboration initiated by an Israeli women architect team. Bags began from a suggestion from a fellow maker. They are made in collaboration with an architect who is also a dear friend. Wall hangings began from a client asking for a necklace big enough to hang above her bed, so we started calling it “jewelry for the home.” Baskets began from trying to make hats. There is a strong client-driven need for belts and we’ve been working on those for a couple of years. We are close to launching them! 

AT: What’s your opinion on “push presents,” the 21st-century trend where men are giving women a piece of jewelry in exchange for giving birth? And if you approve, which jewelry piece in your shop do you think would make a great push present? 

KM: I love that each partnership has a ritual. Love and life should always be celebrated. I think our most expensive piece is the perfect push present!!! Just kidding! Ask for what makes you happy and helps you remember the joy of giving birth because pushing out a baby is no joke.

AT: Michael Kors is quoted as saying “I’ve always thought of accessories as the exclamation point of a woman’s outfit.” What’s your philosophy on accessories?

KM: I have described my approach towards designing accessories, but I don’t know if I have one on wearing them. I’ve heard clients mention that our pieces are conversation starters. People stop them. They’re just so perplexed on never seeing metal do that or wood do that and then can’t get over the fact that it is actually leather. I’ve heard this especially from clients who never wore statement jewelry before ours. Most clients do reserve on wearing Oropopo for days that they want to interact with others. It’s the literal “pick me up.”

Amiah Taylor: In the early 2000s, people would ask if you were a Carrie or a Miranda because of the popularity of the show Sex and the City. In 2020, there’s a resurgence of people watching throwback cartoons….so which guardian from Sailor Moon would you be?

Kelly Zogheb: I’ve always been pretty independent and self-sufficient which I think are defining traits for Lita (Sailor Jupiter).  Throughout my life, I’ve had a hard time fitting in with other women and I’ve actually never watched a single episode of Sex and the City! When Serena (Sailor Moon) first meets Lita, she’s eating lunch at school alone because she’s having a hard time fitting in. I can definitely relate to that!

I share Lita’s love for cooking and baking as well and my favorite color is green. I wish I was as tall as her though! I think she’s supposed to be 5’7” and I’m just 4’9.5”!

AT: Which of your ring designs has been the most intricate and time-consuming for you to complete?

KZ: Definitely the Warlock Ring. I actually had 3 other completely different finished designs for the Warlock Ring that I scrapped before creating the final version. I got so burnt out trying to force the ring to be amazing, that I had to stop and step away from it for a week or so. After my mind was cleared, I started from scratch and just let the creativity flow instead of trying to force it. That’s how I created the final version, which I’m still so proud of today! 

It was a lesson that I’ve known for a long time but I keep forgetting. You can’t force good design, because the final work will ultimately look forced. You need to allow yourself freedom and flexibility when creating, even if that means going in a totally different direction than where you started!

AT: You’re the founder as well as the art director for Soulbound Jewelry. When you go to jewelry shows like Capsule Vegas and JA New York, what is your artistic vision for your booth?

KZ: In general I’m trying my best to create a mysterious, enchanted forest vibe with my jewelry displays. I think about the Forest Temple in Ocarina of Time a lot while I’m planning them. I use either dark green suede or gold velvet boards for the base and dark green velvet display boxes. Then I decorate with different little trinkets I’ve collected over the years – crystals, antique keys, lucky cats, Pokémon cards, torn pages from old books, and even video game manuals. For the last trade show I exhibited at, I brought my fiancé’s original World of Warcraft game manual!

AT: You met a lot of cool fellow designers at the Premier show, like @carolinefdownes. Do you anticipate yourself doing a collaboration with any of the designers you’ve met thus far?

KZ: I absolutely love all of the designer friends I’ve made over the years exhibiting at trade shows, but I don’t think I’d ever do a collaboration with them.

We all have totally different styles that appeal to totally different customers, so I’m not sure if it would make sense. We all do keep in touch, meet up for drinks every now and then and help each other out as much as possible though!

AT: You’ve mentioned virtual gardening on Animal Crossings: New Horizons being the inspiration for your Haru Ring. For you, does virtual gardening ever crossover into a real-life green thumb?

KZ: Oh man, I really wish I had a green thumb in real life, but it’s tough when you have 2 very curious cats and you live in an apartment building that doesn’t get adequate light or keep a stable temperature! My fiance and I are trying to buy a house soon so maybe when I have a backyard I can set up a proper garden! 

AT: Do you have a preference for working with laboratory gemstones over natural gemstones?

KZ: Nope! I work with them both! I think natural gemstones are so interesting because they’re grown in the Earth. I really love natural colored gemstones that have visible inclusions, because it’s a reminder of how they’ve grown and it gives them character!

At the same time, the fact that we have the technology to create lab-grown gemstones blows my mind! I also think lab-grown stones are ideal in certain situations. For example, I always use lab-grown alexandrite over natural alexandrite because the lab-grown stones are eye-clean and exhibit strong color change. Natural alexandrite that’s eye-clean with strong color change is so rare, and therefore incredibly expensive.

AT: You’ve designed dainty pixel rings like your Pixel Heart Ring, but you haven’t featured pixelated gemstones. Is that something we might see from you in the future?

KZ: Probably not! The intricate designs I’m creating now were always in my mind, but a few years ago I simply wasn’t skilled enough to create them.

I’ve already discontinued most of the pixel collection, but I’ve been hanging onto the pixel heart pieces just so I still have a reminder of how far Soulbound has come!

AT: I know that you’re soon to be married, did you design your engagement ring yourself or did you opt to be surprised?

KZ: I did make my engagement ring, but my fiancé came up with the design! It’s based on Aragorn’s crown from the Lord of the Rings: Return of the King (my favorite movie of all time). 
Unfortunately, we’ve had to push our wedding back an entire year due to the COVID-19 situation, but I just see it as another year to plan and make the wedding even more incredible! The overall theme is a magical, enchanted forest with subtle inspiration from Lord of the Rings and the Legend of Zelda!

AT: I know that you’re a LOTR mega-fan because you named one of your cats Frodo and tried to teach yourself Sindarin, one of the elvish languages in the film. If given the opportunity, how would you have styled Cate Blanchett’s character Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings with Soulbound Jewelry? 

KZ: I am totally obsessed with Lord of the Rings and probably always will be! I think Cate Blanchett and Liv Tyler are the two most beautiful human beings to grace this Earth. My wedding day makeup and hair inspiration board is basically a bunch of photos of both of them!

Anyway, it’s hard to think of how I’d style Galadriel because I honestly think her jewelry in the movies was already perfect.

I do have VERY strong opinions about Cate Blanchett’s styling in Thor: Ragnarok, but they’re not jewelry related. If I had a chance to go back in time and influence the styling on that movie, I’d immediately wipe all that insane makeup off of her face! I can’t believe they felt the need to pile so much makeup on such a stunning woman. It was a disgrace.

They also could have created a headpiece that was a nod to the original comic book design but much more subtle and sophisticated. There was a serious lack of taste, restraint, and editing there and they somehow managed to make the absolutely stunning beauty, Cate Blanchett, look like a clown. Ok, that’s the end of my Thor: Ragnarok rant!

Amiah Taylor: What was your experience like at GIA?

Shella Eckhouse: I did GIA through a home study program. I did it while I was going to college at Tulane in New Orleans. I moved back to NY and I completed the rest of the requirements physically at the GIA in New York.

I did a little bit through their mailing system. This makes me sound like a dinosaur because this was 25 years ago, way before the internet. I would get assignments through the mail and I would have to mail them back. I know that makes me sound really funny.

AT: Yeah, it makes me think of the British war, you know how they had carrier pigeons?

SE: (laughs) Please! I’m not that old!

AT: I’m teasing, of course. Did you take a deliberate break after graduate school or did you jump right into your business?

SE: I studied gemology at GIA and then I finished my B.A. at Hunter College. And then I also took some jewelry design courses at FIT. I started working in the field right away.

AT: I was wondering about GIA, in terms of how much it prepares you for the “real world.” I’ve heard gemologists say, “well this education qualified me to be the manager of a jewelry store but it didn’t actually prepare me for the management part.” How would you weigh in on that? 

SE: It’s kind of true, there’s nothing like the actual experience of working in the field. GIA gives you a foundation and the necessary tools to go out and be able to look at things from an educated perspective. To be able to say “okay that’s a F color” or “that’s a J color.”

Most people who are not gemologists or really heavily in the field, they don’t have that capability to tell you color, carat, clarity.

Most people can’t tell you details or facts about gemstones and pearls. GIA really prepares you with the knowledge of the actual materials, it doesn’t teach you how to talk about it with clients or tell you how to make it into a piece of jewelry you can actually wear. It gives you knowledge you need to be part of the industry.

AT: Okay so as far as superior gem knowledge, for example, knowing about gem quality like cut, carat, color. Do you feel like that directly prepared you for starting a jewelry line? Because you did mention that your education at GIA didn’t include composing pieces and putting them together. 

SE: Absolutely! I think that you learn a lot as you mature in the business and you learn about design and what works and what doesn’t. I had some training in drawing, specifically sketching jewelry. Today it’s obsolete because everything is done with CAD machines and computers. I work with all different kinds of people and I get help with the CAD machine. I curate and put things together and express what I want and then it gets made. 

AT: I understand. I think that’s super useful and as we transition to different forms of technology I think dictation is going to become more and more important. 

SE: Agreed. 

AT: So, you said your passion for natural beauty helped you to start your business?

SE: I value the environment and the Earth, it has so many beautiful things to offer us in nature.

Butterflies, animals, all of that is inspiring. In nature there are so many colors and lines that we can observe and find value in. Or bring into the design of jewelry or the way we run our lives.

AT: That’s interesting. Recently, I was really pondering on artifice and women and the beauty industry. We are upgrading into these caricatures of ourselves. Whether that’s getting these gargantuan curves to fit into modern day trends or whatever it is. So when you say you’re inspired by beauty, I almost feel like that’s a reclaiming of the self. It’s like you’re saying “hey let’s be intentional and let’s look at what’s natural.”

SE: Back to basics, exactly. Natural. I look at my line and I think of the power of the flower. I think about the power of women.

AT: I love that.

SE: The cannabis flower is a female plant. 

AT: Oh wow, I didn’t know that. 

SE: Yes, to me it empowers women and it’s empowering to women and that’s a huge part of the aesthetic. 

AT: What is the most exotic stone you’ve been able to work with either in your gemologist training or in your personal business?

SE: I would say a paraiba.

AT: That’s a tourmaline, right?

SE: It’s a very special tourmaline. I’m so glad you know what it is, most people don’t. It’s a stone that’s very rare and very dear to me.  It’s a windex-y color that reminds me of the color of the ocean.

AT: I’ve seen it in jewelry and it’s always such a show stopper. 

SE: I love it. I’ll be honest, I love diamonds and I love a lot of colored stones. I love jewelry and I love gems. They’re so beautiful and to pick a favorite is really difficult. But I do love paraiba and I think it’s so unique and definitely a lot of people don’t know about it. 

AT: Talk to me about your work with the nonprofit, Patients Out Of Time. 

SE: Patients Out Of Time is a nonprofit that provides patients with marijuana at the end of their lives.

My Mother died 4 years ago and she passed away from cancer. She used CBD and medical marijuana at the end of her life to ease her pain and to lessen her anxiety.

It wasn’t easy to come across CBD oil and tinctures and all the things I wanted and needed to help her. I think it’s important that people at the end of their life get some type of relief. And if cannabis gives them that relief then they should have access to it.

AT: I agree wholeheartedly.

SE: With my mother, the morphine was making her feel sick and a few drops of the tincture beneath her tongue would make her a little bit hungry, even if it was just for a bite or two. I felt desperate and it was something that helped. I feel compelled to give other people that opportunity and access to those alternative treatments. 

AT: I’m sorry you had to go through that but I’m glad that it’s made you so charitable and compassionate to other people in similar situations. 

SE: Absolutely. I just find that the plant has such amazing benefits, however with prohibition, it’s been blocked from the mainstream. 

AT: A lot of people don’t know with cannabis and prohibition, that it was acceptable at certain times in America and then legislation made it harder to access.

SE: Yes, exactly. I think our money used to be made out of it. And I think on one of our bills there was a hemp field. 

AT: That’s super cool! 

SE: Yeah, it used to be legal tender back in the day.

AT: Are there any areas in the jewelry industry where you feel like women are underrepresented?

SE: The diamond industry has always been run by men. Women are really making headway and in the last 20 years we’ve stepped it up. The diamond business is very much a family run business and now it’s a business that you can actually enter. 20 years ago, this was a business that was very much inherited and passed down. So I think just being involved and being included is improving. We are becoming more and more accepted and therefore representation really is getting better. 

AT: I completely understand. It is funny when it comes to American capitalism, it’s really true there are so many industries where the products are marketed to women but owned by men. Cosmetics are a big one.

SE: One hundred percent. Everything from makeup, to beauty, to perfume. That whole industry is all run by men. 

AT: If you could have Shella’s Business Bootcamp: How would you train the next generation of jewelry leaders on how to run a business?

SE: Service. Service. Service. The most important thing is to always service your client. Whether that’s shortening a necklace so it fits them at the perfect spot or loosening an earring that’s too tight.

I think it’s all about service and it’s all about customization. Each piece is handcrafted here in New York and all of the materials are hand selected. My pieces can be cheeky and they toe the line between edgy and luxurious. I also offer engraving on the flowers, that way you can put a meaningful date like a concert or a birthday.

AT: If you could magically transform into any jewelry piece in your line, which one would you pick? 

SE: I would say my new diamond bangle because it’s so cool and it can be layered with anything. It makes a great statement but at the same time it’s fun.

AT: I love things that are elegant but still playful, so it sounds like it’s striking the perfect balance. 

SE: It really is and I think that’s the whole thing about the line. We don’t have to be so serious all the time but we all still like nice things. The bangle is a really beautiful keepsake and it’s something special. 

Amiah Taylor: Your father is a gemologist, did his profession encourage a keen interest in gemstones from a young age?

Genifer Murray: One of my first memories of my Dad was his huge safe.  He was a jeweler/gemologist so he had fine gemstones that he kept in the safe.  I remember vividly him taking the gemstones out of wax paper to show me.  The colored stones were my favorite. 

AT: Understood. Do you have a favorite gemstone, following up on your love of colored stones?

GM: Pink sapphire.

AT: Oh my gosh, same!  And which precious metals are your favorite to work with?

GM: Platinum (laughs) if I had my choice it would be platinum. If not, white gold. I’ve never been a yellow gold person.

AT: Who is your dream jewelry company to collaborate with?

GM: The funny thing is, my Dad just bought me a Tiffany bracelet last Christmas. For a long time Tiffany…you couldn’t get into their pieces and then they came out with bracelets for around 100-200 dollars. I would say GeniferM would love to be the Tiffany of cannabis jewelry and we would love to partner with a beautiful jewelry line like Tiffany and Co. 

AT: I definitely get that, talk to me about the Molecule collection, I think it’s so creative. Did your background in microbiology sort of influence those pieces?

GM: I started one of the first analytical cannabis testing labs in the country in 2010.  I have a degree in microbiology.  My Dad likes to say that I’m a microbiologist but I am not.  I ran the business but I’ve always loved science and math so it was very interesting that I ended up with a lab business. I told my Dad, “Dad, we need to make molecules.” And he said “Genifer, only the science people will want those,” and I said, “no Dad, they won’t.”

So we did one molecule necklace and it exploded, so we did 3 sizes in silver. Then we made a gold one. Eventually, we started using diamonds, black diamonds, and colored stones. And we expanded to CBD molecules and it’s turned into a secret handshake. A lot of these parents they can’t wear the leaf but they certainly can wear a molecule.

AT: That’s really cool, it’s like #stealthmode completely slipping under the radar.

GM: (laughs) Yeah! Exactly! The jewelry is created to end stigma but I do know that people want to support it that can’t wear a leaf.

AT: You seem to have such a strong passion for women’s empowerment and you’re dominating in a historically male-dominated industry. Are there any woman-specific challenges that you have faced in the cannabis industry? 

GM: 100% and I think we still face it. I had a male partner and we would be in meetings and the person wouldn’t even look at me or ask me questions when I was the one that could answer the questions.  My partner would have to tell them that, “Genifer can answer these questions.” I also have had several friends who were sexually harassed and passed up for jobs because they wouldn’t sleep with the owner. 

I’ve known this firsthand. Unfortunately, we’re in a culture where we grew up around chauvinism and we didn’t really think about it, right? But now that you’re aware of it, you say “oh my God, I don’t want future generations of women to have to adopt this as normal.” The problem is women need to spend money with women-owned companies and harvest that financial power. That’s the only way we are going to get ahead.  I feel like we are waiting for men to help us. And that is not going to happen.  WE NEED TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN!

AT: What advice would you give to a young woman who wanted to follow in your footsteps and enter into the jewelry industry or simply start her own business?

GM: Well jewelry is hard. We are successful, just because my father has connections, okay? So we were able to make it work. Start-up jewelry companies, they’re one of the harder companies to establish, similarly to restaurants. But as far as women in business, Rule #1 is you get an attorney. Actually no, Rule #1 is if you don’t have to have a business partner then don’t have one. A lot of women feel like they can’t do things on their own and they CAN. 

As far as the attorney, you need to do your due diligence and hopefully you get a referral, and you hire a woman attorney. This is crucial. We get really excited about business cards and the website and company names, but those things are not going to save your ass. Lastly, get a CPA (certified public accountant) so you set up your business appropriately for what you want as an exit strategy. Even if you plan on doing it your whole life, you really should have an exit strategy. 

AT: How was it to see your jewelry on models walking the runway for NYFW?

GM: : My heart fell out honestly. It was amazing. Just me being in New York for Fashion Week blew my mind. But seeing these beautiful women, wearing my jewelry and loving the jewelry and people commenting afterward, it was very exciting. 

AT: That sounds like a dream.

GM:  I always said though, what would be amazing was to see somebody wearing my jewelry that I did not know. And that happened in May of 2018. I was in a conference in Leon, Mexico and I ran into a woman who had my earrings on that I did not know. I had tears in my eyes, the whole thing.

Along those same lines, did you know I was on Vice TV with 2Chainz? So that was the second greatest thing, a couple recognized me and asked “hey, were you on Vice TV?”

2Chainz has this show called Most Expensivest and he has like $10,000 dollar hamburgers and he did a 420 episode. I was a guest and he interviewed me and it was hilarious. And I am not high the whole time, even though they spoofed it and made it seem that way. We got high after… but 2Chainz, he was high the whole time. He reminds me of Snoop Dogg in that way, just like so freaking high! But it was delightful. 

AT: If you could dress any celebrity you wanted in GeniferM Jewelry, who would it be?

GM: I have to say Cameron Diaz definitely.

AT: She has a beautiful neckline.

GM: Yes. I love her outlook on life and she’s funny and she’s not necessarily politically correct, and I’m not always politically correct. Jennifer Aniston too, that might be nice because that might make more of an impact. She’s pro-marijuana. But you’d look at her and say she’s more conservative vs. Cameron.

AT: Talk to me about the Gentleman’s collection, what type of man do you have in mind when you envision your pieces being worn, is that like a 2Chainz?

GM: We didn’t think it was the 2Chainz demographic. Because if you want to stereotype pop culture, he like most rappers really represents pop culture. 

But I’ll tell you it was the best thing I’ve ever done. Every time it runs, we get a ton of sales. But there are some crazy comments on the Vice video too. People rip me to shreds. Like one guy says “wow! I’ve never seen a blonde girl smoke pot!” 

AT: He obviously doesn’t leave his mother’s basement.

GM: (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

So you have the man that has really embraced the bead craze, lava beads and different types of beads. And there are actually masculine beads now. I’d liken it to when straight men got to wear fashionable jeans vs. Levis. And then there’s the corporate man who wears a suit, who buys the lapel pin. Then you have scientists who put it on a lab coat, usually the molecule. There are a few different demographics of men but I think most of them purchase for their significant others.